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From: "John Packer"
Date: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:20 pm

If the Mighty Crusaders were to return, whom do you think should be
the writer/artist.

My prefence would be: Writer: Roy Thomas
Artist: Neal Adams or George Perez

John Packer
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Post Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:54 pm
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From: michael dunne
Date: Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:11 pm

I want traditional super hero art so I suggest...
Bob McLleod
Andy Smith
Buzz
Butch Guice
Mike Bair
Steve Sadowski
Tom Mandrake
Alan Davis
and because people would buy it because he's doing it Adam Hughes.
regards
Michael
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Post Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:55 pm
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From: Phil Latter
Date: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:25 pm

Mighty Crusaders-? Rik Buckler. Big fan of him.

Always have been. On a lot more than Mighty Crusaders. Including his Warren stuff, too.

Best,

Phil Latter
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Post Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:56 pm
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From: Phil Latter
Date: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:38 pm

Hmm. George Perez on Mighty Crusaders.

Someone on this List should get Perez HIMSELF to talk to the folks at Archie about him doing Mighty Crusaders.

Meaning, someone here should 'put him up to it'-!

I find it hard to imagine George Perez showing Archie his portfolio, and them saying 'no'.

If they did, they're insane.

Best,

Phil Latter
Canada
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Post Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:57 pm
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From: e s
Date: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:38 pm

I liked the way DC did it through the !mpact imprint myself. And, yes, I do realise I am in the minority.

Emily
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Post Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:58 pm
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From: CSyphrett
Date: Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:53 pm

I liked Impact too. Too bad DC ruined it.


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Post Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:59 pm
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From: John Packer
Date: Tue Nov 1, 2005 6:18 am

I didn't like the Impact versions, primarilay becasue of the radical changes, and my perceptions of what the caharcters should be like. So my dislike was, of course personal bias. It would be interesting though to incorporate the Impact versions into the Archie universe as sort of an alternate universe or another dimension and have them meet the Archie versions.

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Post Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:00 pm
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From: Rik Offenberger
Date: Tue Nov 1, 2005 6:39 am

In the realm of people who would do the series if asked Paul Castiglia, Fernando Ruiz, Jim Valentino & John Byrne.

I liked Impact too, however my favorite version is the Red Circle. The interesting thing about the Crusaders is how they can change in each generation and gain new fans.
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Post Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:02 pm
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From: Frank D'Urso
Date: Tue Nov 1, 2005 7:27 am

well OBVIOUSLY Neal Adams should be on everyone's lists : )

But Mike DeCarlo already works for Archie and is AWESOME.

Maybe they at least could be talked into an ANNUAL? Something SIMPSON'S
SUPER SPECTACULAR like.

Frank "who knows George Perez?" D'Urso
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Post Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:03 pm
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From: John Packer
Date: Tue Nov 1, 2005 7:46 am

The in-house Archie Artists are good. Yes that would be an acceptable solution. Also, Paul Castiglia on the writing chores, as Rik suggested, sounds great. You know, Archie has the talent there to do it well. And who better to handle the characters than those who know the Archie standards and guidelines, and be able to give us a good series run that can be apreciated by all levels of readers and still not be over the top with violence, etc.

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Post Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:04 pm
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From: michael dunne
Date: Tue Nov 1, 2005 8:37 am

uhhhh
two people I forgot.
Bob Layton
Jim Starlin

michael
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Post Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:11 pm
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From: Phil Latter
Date: Tue Nov 1, 2005 4:49 pm

Well,

Not to throw a damper on things, but, since we're being asked for our opinions, here, well......the reason why the first several issues (not all) of the Red Circle Comics' Mighty Crusaders' issues of the 1980's, as well as The Fly, The Fox, etc,etc series....issues were SO GOOD was because they were NOT written and drawn.....by standard Archie talent.

Art: Rick Buckler, Steve Ditko, Alex Toth, to name some.

I think doing a NEW Mighty Crusaders by Archie talent could be as bad (or worse) than the DC Impact comics, or the final, (later) issues of the early 1980's Mighty Crusaders series.

That 1980's Red Circle Mighty Crusaders series started very strong, and ended pathetically in the later issues. It became an embarrassment.

There are literally, no exaggeration, currently, HUNDREDS of comics titles published each month. Don't believe me-? Check ANY issue of the monthly PREVIEWS comic book. See for yourself.

With so much competition out there with competing titles, anything less than a stellar, top-notch series is going to sink into the primordial slime.

Heck, lots of (Top Notch--pun intended) series by various companies, are being cancelled. There simply is too much product out there right now competing for those consumer dollars.

Not that I think a Mighty Crusaders series is going to happen, let alone a one-shot, but.....Archie Comics staff, should they even entertain the idea, needs to be SMART in terms of any potential series' art talent, writing calibre, and marketing, as well as giving the series a separate imprint/-publishing company name on them EG: Red Circle Comics or something else entirely (not Archie), get top talent assigned to the series, both in terms of writing and illustrations or.....not even bother.

Like DC Comics' Wildstorm imprint. For example.

Most comics' readers these days (unlike when I was a kid decades ago) are older. More sophisticated. They're going to settle for sophisticated comics. Also for the reason that modern comics' cover prices.....they're expensive. They're not ten, nor twelve cents a copy. And they're a quick read. So they darn better be good-!

Otherwise, in my view, such a series is doomed to failure.

It's failed before. And, with those (final) 1980's issues, to be frank.....it deserved to fail. Whereas the first several issues of that series were great-!
It's pretty hard to go wrong, with Rick Buckler art.

The Red Circle series in the early 1980's may have survived, and thrived, had not the last 'x' number of issues been very poorly executed, even childish, and having changed the company name from Red Circle back to.....'Archie Adventure Series'....man, those last issues were incredibly childish and awful.
They were downright horrible.

That's my two cents.

I seriously think that talking Archie Comics into doing a Mighty Crusaders series 'for kids' is an extremely misguided idea.
Is this REALLY what we want-?

If we get anything out of this, then we will get exactly what we ask for. If we ask for crap, that's what we'll get. If we get anything at all.

If we ask for what (I) am asking, above, we will, likewise, get a top quality series, or we'll get nothing.

I'd rather have nothing, than crap.

It's time to raise the bar.

We were asked for our opinions in this forum. This is my opinion. I'm not going to sugar coat it, and I'm not going to lie.

I mean no disrespect to anyone else's contrary-to-my-own opinions.
Please note.

But I say: If Archie wants to publish Mighty Crusaders, they need to produce a top-quality, top notch series. Otherwise, they shouldn't even bother.

I'd rather see a good series than a bad series. Oh, I'm not talking about violence or . in the series. You can do that without those elements. I'm simply asking for good writing. Complex writing. And Top calibre art.
Fan favourite writing (writers) and fan favourite artists/-art. So that the comics series will sell like hotcakes-!

Half-hearted attempts in terms of a comic book series is easy to do. And easy to fail. And lacklustre/-boring.
And, of course....therefore, a failure which ends up as.....a complete waste of money in even wasting the time and the money in developing it.

A top-notch series great takes talent, insight, and hard work. And if a top-notch series succeeds, thrives and does well, it deserves to succeed-!
It becomes its own reward.
If it fails, they can say, "Well, we really did our very best."
And their readers, and fandom, will know it.

If a series is poorly done and 'Archie-like', then it'll fail.
Not because Archie Comics are bad comics. They're not.

No, rather because......Archie comics fans are not superhero fans.
That's a different crowd.

And they cannot later say they wouldn't have known a series like the (FINAL) issues of the 1980's Mighty Crusaders (were they to do it again, now) --- would not fail. They've been down this badly-constructed road before, starting strong, then throwing in the towel by producing nonsense in the final issues of the 1980's.

Ask Archie Comics for what you THINK they are 'willing' to deliver, because we are so desperate for ANY version of The Mighty Crusaders.....and you just may get it.

Is that REALLY....something to get excited about-?

I think we're communicating the wrong message, here.

Archie standards and guidlines should not be applicable here. For all of the above reasons.

In my heartfelt opinion.

Best Wishes,

Phil Latter
Halifax, Nova Scotia
Canada
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Post Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:20 pm
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From: John Packer
Date: Wed Nov 2, 2005 5:08 am

Phil,

As usual you are honest and forthcoming with your opinions. You are very right about the Red Circle series. It started strong. I think it lost momentum, though, right after the first storyline. That Eliminators, Lion god thing was just dragged out too long, with breaks in issue continuity.

I don't know exactly what happened but there is scuttlebutt, etc. However, I think the reason Archie's ultra hero line fails is three fold: 1) They are afraid. 2) They don't really know what to do with the characters. 3) Lack of commitment and good editorial direction and vision for the characters.

They are afraid of having the ultra heroes become a nightmare with . and violence much like other things have been which wouldn't be consistent with their image, even if they publish under a different banner. I think Disney got into trouble the same way, so who can blame them.

They don't really know what to do with the characters, thus the sudden quirks and changes. Of course money is in issue, but you really have to give a venture time, and you may lose money before you make money. I think that they know once they put the Archie Adventure Series logo on the package it is doomed to fail. Why, because of what Archie is about, etc., and how they are perceived.

They don't have a vision for the characters. In this day (and any day) you need vision. That's where the lack of strong editorial direction comes in. Where are the characters today and where do you want them to be five years from now? Don't just plan story by story ... have about five years worth of story ideas planned out so that you know where you are taking the characters. Of course, that plan may and will change along the way. I think this also affected them in the 60s. There were a lot of good stories (and some bad ones) by notable talent in the Radio/Mighty Comics, etc. books, but they fell short in many ways. There was never any consistency with the Spider. For a time they changed him into a poor man's Lex Luthor. His appearance seemed to change just about every time he made an appearance in a story. Some villains that I thought could be major foes, where never developed, ie. Roxr, a plant creature. Once he was defeated by the Fly, he became part of the Anti-Fly League, which really turned out to be a joke. He could have been turned into a major recurring foe. And take Dovi. He had a time machine. Think of the possibilities that that character could have brought to the table if developed into a major villain. The closest Archie came to "serious" development of continuing characters was the Wizard. And why is this? Lack of vision. They really need a strong editorial person who will dedicate himself to the development of the ultra heroes and do it in a way that is acceptable to Archie.

Yes most of us are older and require sophisication in our reading. I believe though that you can do good a good series with the Mighty Crusaders which would appeal to both we older readers and the 10, 11, and 12, etc. year olds. Warner Bros. did it with their Bugs Bunny cartoons. How many of us enjoyed those as a child, and when we became adults enjoyed them also, but for different reasons. They were written in a way to appeal to all. There were things the kids didn't get that the adults did, and that is my point. I think, I could write such stories for the Mighty Crusaders.

I understand the want of big names to draw an audience. And I would definitely pick up the Mighty Crusaders if they were written/drawn by big names. There, are many fans out there though who love these characters, and because of that love and passion for them may even be better in their interpretation of the characters. Did you know that Alan Moore wanted to use the Mighty Crusaders as the basis for what became the Watchmen graphic novel. (Which by the way I never made it through. It totally turned me off.) Of course, Archie would never be able to use the characters again after that treatment. So, not all the ideas by the bigs guns are winners either.

I think the right marketing to stir up the interest, to get the people interested in plopping down their hard-earned cash to buy the first few issues of a new Mighty Crusaders series is one of the most important aspects of this whole thing, no matter who is doing the writing or the art. Archie, can't just rely on us, the die-hard Crusaders fans ( the petition only had 219 signatures), they have to get the Marvel and DC readers to pick them up also; plus, I think, they need to get some of their Archie audience to read them. They need super hero comic book readers to know about and read the Mighty Crusaders. Which means that the marketing needs to continue well into the run of the book, and of course, the quality needs to be "Top-Notch".

Rik just recently had an interview with Marv Wolfman. Mr. Wolfman said that DC was (at the time) story oriented, and Marvel was more action and character oriented. He said that he tried to mesh both with the Teen Titans (I think he succeeded). Good stories need drama, conflict, suspense and good characters. You want to read about characters that you care about. Archie's vain attempt at that in the end of the 80s run was miserable, to say the least. The Black Hood as a cigar smokin' ruffian, etc., c'mon. Not only did their characterizations miss the boat, they sunk into the mire at the bottom of the bay.

There are probably many good writers and artists out there in fandom land just waiting for their big break. Maybe many of us think big and should think about starting small. I know I've always thought big. I know that we have to "start somewhere", but sometimes in today's comic book market it is the big ideas that make the grade. I've had plenty of ideas over the years, and have let life get in the way of bringing them about (my fault). One idea I had back in late 60s, early 70s was a team called The Protectors. It was made up of DC characters. The core of this team were: Captain Action, Action Boy, Supergirl (There was going to be some love interest developing between Supergirl and Captain Action.), and Metamorpho. Their leader was Prince Ra-Man, only his mind had been trapped in the cat, Memkata. So in essence the team was being led by a cat. Later joiners to the team were going to be Robby Reed, Dail H for Hero, and Genia (whom die-hard DC fans would know was a female robot created by Brainiac). I had story ideas planned out for 100 hundred issues. Of course, had no idea how to go about presenting it to DC, and by the time I was getting ready to find out...well, they lost Captain Action, and life got in they way. Now, that may have been too big of a project for DC to trust to an "amateur", but I thought it was rather unique. I mention this primarily to show that I had a plan. Again, Archie needs a good super hero oriented editorial person with vision who can come up with a plan and direction for the characters.

Well. I think I've rambled on too long. I'm sorry, but I'm passionate about these characters. I think they are some of the most unique in comics history. And I think they can be done in a way that would appeal to the majority, and still be a great series, if they had the right editorial direction, dedication, and VISION.

John Packer
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Post Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:31 pm
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From: Phil Latter
Date: Wed Nov 2, 2005 6:22 pm

John,

Your answer was long and interesting. Hopefully, you found mine the same.
We don't have to agree. And we don't. Mainly because we are different people, different individuals, with different tastes in our fiction.
This doesn't mean one of us is wrong.
Please kindly see my (further), newest responses below, sandwiched between yours, all the way down, preceded by *****
Again, I don't agree with your opinions on this (well, I agree with some of them....), but I DO find them interesting.
There is no right nor wrong in this. I simply see it differently.
Please read futher, below...
Thanks, Phil...

John Packer wrote:
Phil,

As usual you are honest and forthcoming with your opinions. You are very right about the Red Circle series. It started strong. I think it lost momentum, though, right after the first storyline. That Eliminators, Liongod thing was just dragged out too long, with breaks in issue continuity.

***** I completely agree with this.

I don't know exactly what happened but there is scuttlebutt, etc. However, I think the reason Archie's ultra hero line fails is three fold: 1) They are afraid.

*****Do you mean here, above, that the Archie creative team were 'afraid' of telling older (by that I don't mean . nor violence), mature hero comics, for adults, as opposed to comics for kids-? Just not sure what you meant there....

2) They don't really know what to do with the characters.

************ Agreed. And, again, they aren't used to doing these type/-genre of comics. Which again, John, is why Archie staff needs to stay the heck away from them. NO Mighty Crusaders comics is better than terrible Mighty Crusaders comics-? Haven't you had enough of that tripe-? I have.

3) Lack of commitment and good editorial direction and vision for the characters.

******** Again, agreed. And I will also add: non-interest. It is madness to have a creative team uninterested, untalented, and simply 'not getting it'....the 'right way to do these types of comics.
What should The Mighty Crusaders be as a new series-? A SERIOUS type of team, like The New Avengers, or the JLA. No, I don't mean copy those. I do mean, make them uniquely their own, but make them for adults, not kids. Again, Archie fans do not read superheroes. Do that and the series will fail. It happened in the 1960's, it happened in the 1980's. Hell, it happened in the 1940's, once Archie was invented, took over the MLJ superhero titles. The MLJ characters lingered then, too, became watered down, sillier and sillier, Archie sharing covers with them. The MLJ heroes were, increasingly, drawn goofier and goofier, skinnier and skinnier, like they were anemic.

***** Archie has always been a killing influrence to....Mighty Crusaders comics. Even when Archie himself wasn't in them. It was that creative team....'Archie Mentality." Yeesh.

They are afraid of having the ultra heroes become a nightmare with . and violence much like other things have been which wouldn't be consistent with their image, even if they publish under a different banner.

*********** I agree. But that's only part of the equation. They also don't LIKE superhero comics, don't know how to do them, and it is like anything else in life. They can 'police' themselves, like you said, in terms of lack of . and violence, etc., and STILL put out riveting Mighty Crusaders comics. But they won't---because they have no interest in doing so, also. And they don't have the skill. They shouldn't have meddled with the creators who were doing the early issues of the 1980's Mighty Crusaders series.

I think Disney got into troube the same way, so who can blame them.

*********** See, this (respectfully) doesn't even make sense. Define 'getting in trouble.' (??) Getting in trouble.....with who-? Readers' moms-? Archie readers don't read superheroes. Not enough to matter. So, a non-issue. Because they were too wonky, superhero/-more older storyline readers and collectors gave up on that 1980's series, eventually, too. Even I did. And I LOVE these characters. I only finished the series, collecting and reading them (and they were terrible) ---decades later.

*********** And, the 1960's series only lasted seven issues. Presumably for the same reason. And yes, I am aware that The Fly (later Adventures Of The Fly and then renamed again as Flyman) lasted well over 30 issues. But these were better, in my opinion, as was The Adventures Of The Jaguar (though still rather wonky) than was the cornyball seven issues of the Silver Age Mighty Crusaders.
So, Archie AND superhero fans didn't buy enough of them to keep the title going. So the title lost BOTH audiences. The Archie 'creative team' (and I use the term loosely) torpedoed the title with their own ineptness in handling this TYPE of genre comic.

**********Don't forget, the MLJ superheroes starring in the 1940's, before Archie was even invented. Before the Comics Code.
They were more 'older' than the Silver Age Mighty Crusaders AND the later issues of the 1980's issues. Which were embarrassingly bad.

***********These characters, as I bet you are already aware (not trying to insult you, here)....weren't invented in the 1960's. And most of those 1960's comics were wonky, too. I didn't hate them. Some of them I like. But they were done in the 1960's for kids. Most of them were silly.

*************I preferred the first several issues of the 1980's series (but not the final issues) --- much better.

********** To reiterate, Archie fans don't read superheroes. Since that is the case (which is why the later 'wonky' 1980's superheroes issues failed and was cancelled)--- a new series like that, again, would almost certainly fail, and deserve to. This said, if anyone, including Rik, wants me to drop this thread, I will.

They don't really know what to do with the characters, thus the sudden quirks and changes. Of course money is an issue, but you really have to give a venture time...

********* No, you don't. 'You' (the writers and artists), have to start STRONG).....not just 'try' and hope you figure it out eventually, EG: later figure out how to do it well, after 4 or 5 lousy issues....and then later, hope you find your groove....so as to only then....finally, start telling some GOOD stories, and some clunkers.....THIS is why you have to hire Top Talent to do it, to begin with, with # 1....)
Especially now, with hundreds of titles (again, check out the PREVIEWS monthly catalogue for proof of this) every single month, competing for limited consumer dollars......I get PREVIEWS every month, and I order heavy out of it.....you'd be amazed at how many titles get cancelled every single month.
From numerous companies. So, Mighty Crusaders, new series, has to start STRONG.

************ Would you, for example, not knowing how to fly an airplane, take off and hope you figure it out, and hopefully not crash and die-? No. And, if you WERE to do that, to be that foolish.....would you take your wife with you-? No, of course not.

And you may lose money before you make money. I think that they know once they put the Archie Adventure Series logo on the package it is doomed to fail. Why, because of what Archie is about, etc., and how they are perceived.

****** 'Archie' on the covers of these superhero comics is the kiss of death. Period. WHY would they want to torpedo themselves-? It makes no sense. You clearly want a different Mighty Crusaders title than I do. That's okay. I don't get it, but then again...I consider myself to be an Open-Minded Liberal. So, really....I don't have to. It doesn't work for me, though. At all.
Respectfully stated.

They don't have a vision for the characters. In this day (and any day) you need vision. That's where the lack of strong editorial direction comes in.

*********** I agree with the first line of this, 'They don't have a vision for the characters.' But see, this is the most important line in that whole paragraph. And yeah, they don't have vision. Without these, editorial direction does not exist. Who will the editors be of these new Archie Mighty Crusaders comics come from-? Marvel freelancers they hire, for the reason that they (Archie staff) cannot trust themselves to do a decent job-? ( I ) don't trust them. Do you-?

******* See, the strong editioral direction which you mention above, cannot come from Archie. That type of editiorail direction , again, (I realize I am overstating this).....doesn't exist at Archie for this type of series, 'done right.'
I'm not saying Archie comics are bad comics. They're not MY type of comics but.....heck, it's GOOD that there are comics for kids.
But me, I cannot read them. I'm not a kid. And, even when I was a kid, in the 1960's, I read Marvels, DCs, Gold Key, Dells, etcetera. Marvels were my favourite. They didn't write down to the readers; they wrote intelligent stories, and well-illustrated, on a sophisticated level. They told the types of stories (and this is IMPORTANT) .....that they would want to read. They told stories, first and foremost, in a lot of ways, to entertain themselves. And, knowing this, they couldn't help but succeed. Kids and adults are intelligent. Why write 'down'....to either-?

*********I seriously believe that asking Archie to do a new Mighty Crusaders series done 'their way' is.....asking for a Mighty Crusaders series the only way the posters on this group believes that Archie Comics WOULD be willing to do it. Which I can live without.
Again, I'm not saying anyone else's opinions (including yours and Rik's) is wrong. We're different people Believe me, I respect that.
I, too, love The Mighty Crusaders, and I want them done 'right', having seen that, briefly, in the early 1980's.
My 'right' is not your 'right'.

Where are the characters today and where do you want them to be five years from now? Don't just plan story by story ... have about five years worth of story ideas planned out so that you know where you are taking the characters. Of course, that plan may and will change along the way. I think this also affected them in the 60s. There were a lot of good stories (and some bad ones) by notable talent in the Radio/Mighty Comics, etc. books, but they fell short in many ways.

********** I agree. Now me, I rather liked The Web. Although there were elements of that storyline that were overdone, and thus, silly. Like his wife's constant nagging. Why didn't he dump her-? It was novel at first, then irritating and its own cliche. In the same manner that The Shield, being a loser, and couldn't hold onto a job (done over and over and over and over to death) in various stories just became boring. If they were trying to do the hard luck Harry "Peter Parker" bad luck, they didn't have the flair for it.

********* On another topic, I have always felt that The Fly's costume was extremely outdated and should be updated. But by that I don't mean the DC/-Impact version. Ungh. The Fly's costume is dated in the same manner as (some) old autos of the 1950's are dated designs. (I love a lot of 1950's autos, but some look horrific, now.)

********** The Fly's costume looks dated. Like bell bottom jeans, tie-dye tee shirts, etc. And those googles. Tunnel vision. They should get someone like Neal Adams to redesign it. He did a terrific job on redesigning Robin's (of Batman) costume, the one with the black cape. Yes, that was Neal Adams' design. Maybe give The Fly eye lenses on his mask like actual fly eyes. That could be cool. And a darker green and more subdued yellow. And lose the gun and belt. The wings look positively silly. Make them larger and put them on his back, EG: when he becomes The Fly, have the wings grow out of the middle of his back mid-way down, not over and around his shoulders. That never made sense and just looks dumb. The Fly needs to have a 'darker' design. The current one: a 'classic'-? Just plain 'Unghh'-!

There was never any consistency with the Spider. For a time they changed him into a poor man's Lex Luthor. His appearance seemed to change just about every time he made an appearence in a story.

********** Yeah. The Spider seemed to be just there for comic relief. And, a lot of the golden age heroes, like The Hangman, etc, Captain Flag, etc,etc,etc, became (some of them in the 1960's, some in the 1980's, villains.) Why-? Because the writers were so inept, and had such a LACK of enough interesting villains to combat Our Heroes, and didn't have the talent to create new, INTERESTING villains, that they instead changed some heroes.....to VILLAINS. Another sure sign that the inmates are running the asylum-!

Some villains that I thought could be major foes, were never developed, ie. Roxr, a plant creature. Once he was defeated by the Fly, he became part of the Anti-Fly League, which really turned out to be a joke. He could have been turned into a major recurring foe. And take Dovi. He had a time machine. Think of the possiblities that that character could have brought to the table if developed into a major villain. The closest Archie came to "serious" development of continuing characters was the Wizard. And why is this? Lack of vision. They really need a strong editorial person who will dedicate himself to the development of the ultra heroes and do it in a way that is acceptable to Archie.

******** Right. And, don't forget, they took away The Comet's interesting blue and red outfit, and put him back in that crazy every-colour-of-the-rainbow disaster outfit, with that stupid helmet. Arrggggh.

Yes most of us who are older and require sophisication in our reading. I believe though that you can do good a good series with the Mighty Crusaders which would appeal to both we older readers and the 10, 11, and 12, etc. year olds.

************ I don't believe that at all. Give this some more thought. You cannot please everyone (both audiences) on one Mighty Crusaders. Not on that particular title. The Mighty Crusaders are not Spiderman nor Batman. They've been out of the spotlight too long.
You cannot write the type of comics you are arguing for with The Mighty Crusaders and succeed. You can do it with Spiderman or Batman. And people, enough people to support the title with $$$$ will STILL buy them. Even if they are lousy. It's been proven time and time again with Spiderman. It doesn't matter how lousy they are. People will buy them and they will still sell like hotcakes. Which, when you think about it, is a damn shame. Mighty Crusaders isn't a situation like that. This has been proven, too. More than once. And this is why I (respectfully) completely disagree wth you, Sir.

Warner Bros. did it with their Bugs Bunny cartoons.

********** Yes, they did. Absolutely. The creators of those Bugs Bunny cartoons wrote well-crafted stories to appeal to readers young and older....and old.
*****BUT.....comedic animal animated characters that are extremely funny and brilliantly crafted.....are not superhero paper comic books. Apples and oranges. You cannot do that with superhero comics. Remember, the DC Impact line was a failure too, as was Marvel's "New Universe" (remember those-? Starbrand, etc...).....titles too of decades ago. They were terrible, and bombed. Heck, the only New Universe title ( I ) liked was Merc, which was about a violent mercenary. And Semper Fi. I THINK (if memory serves)....that was a New Universe title. Or, if not, Merc was.

********** But, don't misread. Again, a new Mighty Crusaders comics series.....I don't want them to be violence. But what I also don't want is to have my intelligence insulted. If we praise crap, we get crap.

How many of us enjoyed those as a child, and when we became adults enjoyed them also, but for different reasons. They were written in a way to appeal to all. There were things the kids didn't get that the adults did, and that is my point. I think, I could write such stories for the Mighty Crusaders.

********* I don't think this is the same type of thing. Again, apples and oranges. I think you're fighting the wrong battle. But, I believe in democracy; I would fight for your right to have those views. ESPECIALLY because I disagree with it. You're nonetheless entitled to like...what I dislike......
This is REALLY what you want of a Mighty Crusaders comic-? You yourself said that the 1980's series, after some good issues, lost its way. So, we do agree on at least that much. How can you argue both sides-?

I understand the want of big names to draw an audience. And I would definitely pick up the Mighty Crusaders if they were written/drawn by big names.

********** See, big names or small names, it is even more important that they be high quality comics. And, yes, Big Names will sell more issues. The Mighty Crusaders do need that $$$ advantage, since the title has failed in the way they did them before. You (the creators) need to be smart, and give the title the BEST chance to survive, by turning out a top quality product. Top Notch, if memory serves, was the title which hosted the golden age Black Hood stories. These stories were also....'top notch' stories.

********** Speaking of THe Black Hood, Rik, we talked in private posts of our MUTUAL desire to find those reprinted vintage PULPS with Black Hood PULP fiction text stories, with The Black Hood on the covers. Well, ONE of those is being reprinted again. See the latest issue of the PREVIEWS CATALOGUE, cover dated Nov 2005, page 360 and order a copy if you want one. I am going to-!

There are many fans out there though who love these characters, and because of that love and passion for them may even be better in their interpretation of the characters.

******** Like you, John, I am a huge Mighty Crusaders fan. We simply have different visions of the kinds of stories we want featuring them.

Did you know that Alan Moore wanted to use the Mighty Crusaders as the basis for what became the Watchmen graphic novel. (Which by the way I never made it through. It totally turned me off.)

*************** Actually, I heard several times that Alan Moore wanted to use the Charlton Action Heroes (EG: Captain Atom, who became Ozymadius---however that was spelled----Blue Beetle became Owlman, The Question became Rohrchstadt ----again, unsure of spelling, etc.......

Of course, Archie would never be able to use the characters again after that treatment. So, not all the ideas by the bigs guns are winners either.

********* Well, see, that's why DC nixed the idea of the Charlton Action Heroes in The Watchmen. DC never owned The Mighty Crusaders.

**** Again, different strokes. I'm a Liberal. I loved The Watchmen.
But, we need people like you in this hobby, too. You're very polite in your posts. I like that.

I think the right marketing to stir up the interest, to get the people interested in plopping down their hard-earned cash to buy the first few issues of a new Mighty Crusaders series is one of the most important aspects of this whole thing, no matter who is doing the writing or the art. Archie, can't just rely on us, the die-hard Crusaders fans ( the petition only had 219 signatures), they have to get the Marvel and DC readers to pick them up also; plus, I think, they need to get some of their Archie audience to read them.

*********** Actually, I agree with all of the above paragraph. By the way.

They need super hero comic book readers to know about and read the Mighty Crusaders. Which means that the marketing needs to continue well into the run of the book, and of course, the quality neeeds to be "Top-Notch".

******* Absolutely. Exactly what I've been saying.

Rik just recently had an interview with Marv Wolfman. Mr. Wolfman said that DC was (at the time) story oriented, and Marvel was more action and character oriented. He said that he tried to mesh both with the Teen Titans (I think he succeeded).

********* Can't comment. Not a title I am getting. I got the 1980's versions.

Good stories need drama, conflict, suspense and good characters. You want to read about characters that you care about. Archie's vain attempt at that in the end of the 80s run was miserable, to say the least. The Black Hood as a cigar smokin' ruffian, etc., c'mon. Not only did their characterizations miss the boat, they sunk into the mire at the bottom of the bay.

********** We're agreed completely on that. They, with The Black Hood, were trying to do The Mighty Crusaders as an 'Archie' title, and at the same time trying to make it more 'older' by making The Black Hood tough and a crook.
And tough like Wolverine. You can't have it both ways, cannot have your cake and eat it too. So, it came off as stupid. No argument on any of this.

There are probably many good writers and artists out there in fandom land just waiting for their big break. Maybe many of us think big and should think about starting small. I know I've always thought big. I know that we have to "start somewhere", but sometimes in today's comic book market it is the big ideas that make the grade. I've had plenty of ideas over the years, and have had life get in the way of bringing them about (my fault). One idea I had back in late 60s, early 70s was a team called The Protectors. It was made up of DC characters. The core of this team were: Captain Action, Action Boy, Supergirl (There was going to be some love interest developing between Supergirl and Captain Action.), and Metamorpho. Their leader was Prince Ra-Man, only his mind had been trapped in the cat, Memkata. So in essence the team was being led by a cat. Later joiners to the team were going to be Robby Reed, Dail H for Hero....

********* Not a bad idea except.....I hated Robby Reed and 'Dial H For hero' (no offence intended.....

....and Genia (whom die-hard DC fans would know was a female robot created by Brainiac). I had story ideas planned out for 100 hundred issues. Of course, had no idea how to go about presenting it to DC, and by the time I was getting ready to find out...well, they lost Captian Action, and life got in they way.

********* I loved Gil Kane's Captain Action. But they couldn't have put Captain Action into DC Comics continuity anyway probably, in a team title. As, DC didn't own Captain Action. The Ideal Toy company did. Yeah, I know Superman was in the first issue of Captain Action, but that was just a guest star. By the way, I have Captain Action, Action Boy and Doctor Evil 12 inch vintage action figures on one of my bookshelves. I also have two more, dressed as The Green Hornet and Kato.

Now, that may have been too big of a project for DC to trust to an "amateur", but I thought it was rather unique. I mention this primarily to show that I had a plan. Again, Archie needs a good super hero oriented editorial person with vision who can come up with a plan and direction for the characters.

********* Except Archie probably wouldn't be interested in doing a Mighty Crusaders series that was....worth doing. In my opinion.

Well. I think I've rambled on too long. I'm sorry, but I'm passionate about these characters. I think they are some of the most unique in comics history. And I think they can be done in a way that would appeal to the majority, and still be a great series, if they had the right editorial direction, dedication, and VISION.

John Packer

*********** Don't be sorry. I love these characters too. Otherwise, I wouldn't be a member of this group. It's been an intersting discussion. Again, I'm not arguing with you. I always find your comments interesting. I like the debate.
Oh, one last: they should bring back BOTH Shields, despite the fact that one of them was killed in the Lancelot Strong/-Shield series. It didn't bother me that there were two Shields. So what-?! Look how many Flashes and Green Lanterns DC comics has......I actually rather LIKED the 1980's story where the Lancelot Strong Shield was killed off. It was a great story, well-done. I'd still like him back, though. Oh, their Steel Sterling stories....now THOSE were really good-! I'd also like to see a dark version of Mr. Justice as in the 1980's Blue Ribbon Comics # 2. Now THAT was cool. Y'know....that was one series (Blue Ribbon Comics) in the 1980's that was consistently good with just a few wonky ones. Strong editorial content. Now me, I call it "talent."

Best,

Phil Latter
Halifax, Nova Scotia
Canada
Rik
http://www.mightycrusaders.net
Everything you ever wanted to know about the Mighty Crusaders, from the Golden Age to today.

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Post Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:38 pm
Rik User avatar
MightyCrusaders.net
MightyCrusaders.net

Posts: 1771
Location: California

From: John Packer
Date: Thu Nov 3, 2005 5:17 am

Phil:

Thanks for the in depth response. I really appreciate it. I think that in reality we both want the same thing, a good, quality Mighty Crusaders series.

Just wanted to clear up a few points where, judging by your response to them, I may not have made myself clear.

They are afraid. Yes, the . and violence thing, but also I think they are afraid to really commit, possibly because, as has been stated, they know Archie, but they don't know superheroes. It would be a big investment for them to really do it right, and I don't think they are willing to really take the steps necessary to do all they have to do, because I don't think that they really believe in the characters, and they are looking at money as the bottom line. Rik, once pointed out to me that their Archie's are very big sellers in their market. In the superhero market they would have to compete with JLA, Avengers, X-men, etc.

This is actually in response to your response to me, but ties in with something else I said. You said: "Don't forget, the MLJ superheroes starring in the 1940's, before Archie was even invented. Before the Comics Code.
They were more 'older' than the Silver Age Mighty Crusaders AND the later issues of the 1980's issues."
Exactly. Yet the primary readers of those 1940s comics at the time were kids, not adults. And the kids got out of them what they got out of them. The adults reading them (possibly many years later) got out of them what they got out of them. It is possible to write good adventure/superhero comics that appeal to both the younger crowd and the older crowd, if they are well written. The two groups read them with different perception levels. I don't mean we should be writing down. I just mean write quality, sophisticated, interest, etc stories an the audience will be there both young and old.

They don't really know what to do with the characters, thus the sudden quirks and changes. Of course money is an issue, but you really have to give a venture time... The second part of this comment about giving the venture time was referring to the money issue. I agree. you have to start strong and keep it strong. But if your bottom line is the dollar, and the first few issues didn't pull the way you wanted them to and it was quality stuff... don't just throw in the towel. Continue with your marketing efforts and continue to put out the quality material. Give the venture enough time to make the monetary compensation. You have to spend money to make money. You may not outsell the X-men, etc. Some readers may not discover the product until the fourth, fifth, sixth, etc issue. I'm a prime example. I sometimes didn't discover a book until well into the first year, liked it and found it cancelled shortly thereafter. But the quality has to be there from the start.


You responded to my statement about the Archie Adventure Series log on the product thusly: 'Archie' on the covers of these superhero comics is the kiss of death. Period. WHY would they want to torpedo themselves-? It makes no sense. You clearly want a different Mighty Crusaders title than I do. That's okay. I don't get it, but then again...I consider myself to be an Open-Minded Liberal. So, really....I don't have to. It doesn't work for me, though. At all.
Respectfully stated.
I may not have made myself clear. But your point was exactly what I meant. If they put the Archie Adventures Series logo on the product it is the "kiss of death". Because of how people perceive Archie, that logo would speak volumes to them about the contents. They need to publish under a logo that people would not normally associate with Archie. (And, it should give the appearance that Archie is not connected with it at all.)

Hope I cleared up these points. I belive you, I and all the Mighty Crusaders fans want the same thing. Quality. And you're right. They should not be copies of the Avengers or the JLA, but they need to have their own, unique identity.

John Packer
Rik
http://www.mightycrusaders.net
Everything you ever wanted to know about the Mighty Crusaders, from the Golden Age to today.

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