The Next Wave of Red Circle Characters

[leonmallett]

P.S. At least I like The Web. I look forward to reading that book!

Of the four titles leading in, Inferno and the Web elicited the lowest expectation for me. In terms of ongoing execution however, I feel the Web has been the strongest title. I know of the two books the Shield is getting the pluadits (and it truly is excellent in my view), but in just three issues Angela Robinson and crew have found what I view is a really novel tack: outsourced heroism, the dilletante hero, the plays on the concepts of webs etc. Great stuff all with a perfect accompaniment in the art.

[leonmallett]

I respect our difference of opinion on this Captain, but out of interest, what aspects of the Red Circle books and/or character reinventions have you found disappointing, especially in the context of a difficult market which is notorious for new titles to stay in?

I'm an old-timer who likes the traditional characters. I really enjoyed the 80s Red Circle/Archie Adventure Series revival, was very unhappy with the !mpact era and so far, I'm disappointed with this second DC effort. I base that solely on being teased in 2008 with wonderful promotional artwork featuring the traditional Shield, Black Hood and (albeit mistakenly) Fly characters fighting Batman. I'm getting nothing close to that. Meanwhile, the French present The Fly in his corny old costume in a short story with a lot of fun, mystique and creativity. And The Fly even gets laid!

I will continue to support this project (buying two copies of each title, as I did in the 80s with RC/AAS and the 90s with !mpact); however, I'm still giving it only a year.

Given a straight choice - yes I would have preferred the characters (roughly) as was, but that was simply never likley since DC would have had their own ideas and Archie simply have been particularly disinterested in publishing new material regularly with these heroes.

In lieu of nothing, then I am happy that a derived work has appeared. In that, I am enjoying both books so far.

[Rik]

It's not the way I would have done the Shield. I don't know why he is a soldier instead of an FBI agent. Also I would have his role be that of DC's Captain America. Having said that the art is outstanding. I am waiting for the crossover with all the Superman titles when General Lane takes control of project Shield during "War of the Supermen". I think the writing is solid and I like the comic, it is just not how I would have done it.

The Web is nothing like I would have done. They took Hangman's origin and mixed with the Web's origin. They mix the Neal Adams uniform with the original, including Neal's huge "W" on the chest. I am pleasantly surprised how much I like this comic. It is my favorite comic each month. It's like what if Batman didn't train his whole life but instead wanted to take a few short cuts. And then everything comes back to haunt him. From having his Webhosts turn on him, to having Oracle plant spyware in his mainframe and having to let the guy who kill his brother go to save his girlfriend. It is just the right amount of humor and seriousness and the art is excellent.

Hangman was Archie's Batman in the 40's and then just a second rate villain in the 60's. The short stories as co-feature don't give a lot of time for character development and he just appears to be another version of the Spectre. I am O.K. with the Spectre and so the Hangman stories are O.K. too. In fact all the Hangman stories so far could substitute the Spectre or the Demon and still be the same story. Not that they are bad stories, but it's not my idea of the Hangman. Again Tom Derneck's art is top notch.

With Inferno, it is a train wreck. I can't tell what is going on with the story. I don't know who he is, how his powers work or even if they are two different guys. I know this is the plan and the reading is supposed to find out at the same time Frank does. However, after 5 months I would like a clue. The guy looks nothing like the old Inferno and the origin has nothing related to the original Inferno. This one is the furthest removed from the original.

My favorite version of these heroes is the 80's Red Circle Run. I hope so someday say that the DC version is my favorite and that may well happen, it just hasn't yet. I liked Impact so the idea that this is Impact 2 isn't horrible to me. But, I don't think this is Impact 2. With Impact the idea was to make the line appeal to younger readers without making it like what is now the Johnny DC line. DC wanted Impact to be a place to develop the next generation of readers. There is no way this line would achieve those goals. This time they are trying to update the characters and work them into the DCU. I think the thing that makes this feel most like Impact is that the Shield is a soldier in both. In Impact the Shield was Iron Man on the run with stolen military hardware, it was hard to make that heroic, no matter what his motives were. At least here Joe Higgins is a hero both in and out of the Shield uniform now. Also Impact over reached. The Fox was revamped twice but only published once. They had 5 different Shields and 3 different Black Hoods. At the end of 12 months they were going to start over and redesign everything again in Impact Phase 2.

All said and done, I am enjoying this run and am looking forward to the Mighty Crusaders team book. With the upcoming "War of the Supermen" crossover, the new co-features just announced and both Dan DiDio and Rachel Gluckstern talking about a Mighty Crusaders team book. I think we will see the book continue to develop and they will be given a chance to grow their readership. I would really like to see these characters grow and thrive. They come out of moth balls every decade, it would be nice if this time they took off and reached their full potential.

[Captain Sprocket]

Great commentary, Rik.

I remember the line about how !mpact was supposed to appeal to a young audience to bring them in to comic book reading. I had trouble understanding the plots as a 40+ year old and wondered then how kids or young adults could follow them!

[leonmallett]

...Hangman was Archie's Batman in the 40's and then just a second rate villain in the 60's. The short stories as co-feature don't give a lot of time for character development and he just appears to be another version of the Spectre. I am O.K. with the Spectre and so the Hangman stories are O.K. too. In fact all the Hangman stories so far could substitute the Spectre or the Demon and still be the same story. Not that they are bad stories, but it's not my idea of the Hangman. Again Tom Derneck's art is top notch.

Funnily enough, the Hangman is the series I looked forwrd to most after the one-shots, yet despite being a fan of John Rozum from his time writing Xombi (for Milestone), the feature has really gone nowhere very quickly.

Hangman is the easiet character to use to tie the red Circle into the wider DCU, since basically he has 150 years worth of stories that can be told, yet it is meandering in the present. I just don't see any direction. I also enjoy the derenick art (and have enjoyed his work since seeing the Proetctors stuff he did - yeasr after they were published).

With Inferno, it is a train wreck. I can't tell what is going on with the story. I don't know who he is, how his powers work or even if they are two different guys. I know this is the plan and the reading is supposed to find out at the same time Frank does. However, after 5 months I would like a clue. The guy looks nothing like the old Inferno and the origin has nothing related to the original Inferno. This one is the furthest removed from the original...

There are so many dangling plot threads (I haven't read episode 4 yet as I need to pick up the last few weeks comcis soon), but in no particular order:
- the 'two men-one body' factor
- who is the mysterious pursuing agency
- who is the woman in the flashbacks
- how do Bill Higgins and Bob Dickering figure in his origin
- why was he trying to stop the second boat explosion (and presumably the first)

All of which is a lot for a full page count lead story, let alone a shorter backup. The art really suits the series, and I feel that all 4 have really suitable art teams which is great.

[Star-Team-Germany]

From what Ive heard and seen here in Germany, these titles sell much better as anticipated.
Especially the Shield. Die hard Captain Amercia fans buy it, but also DC collectors.
( When "Impact" was launched, the normal DC collectors dont touched it, eak "Archie" )

The Inferno "oneshot" also sold well, especially with very young readers.
( Very young means 12,13 years old - because they have to learn English )

Hangman has some followers, only the Web isnt selling at all. ( I am the only one buying it )
But sometimes this can be deceiving. The Phantom - in total not selling well - has still a great fanbase in Germany.

[leonmallett]

Nice to see you posting again STG. :)

Re: The Web book; the lead story surpassed all my expectations, and Angela Robinson created some really plausible ideas based on this new Web mythos; hopefully Matt Sturges can build on what has gone before when he takes over, but both Red Circle books are among my top 5 reads of each month out of probably 20-25 titles I collect.

[leonmallett]

I am actually quite excited about seeing the Jaguar and the Comet next week. I'd say I am alsmost excited about the prospect as I was about the DCU-Red Circle debut and subsequent ongoing launches.

I know it isn't the same characters as the MLJ/Archie iterations, but I still am pleased to see it happen. I hope DC find a way to raise the profile on these two books soon in some way, esepcially since they were understandably just about the only two DCU titles to keep out of Blackest Night.

I suspect that the two titles and any prospective THUNDER Agents book(s) will tie into the upcoming Superman event, so maybe that will help.

[FLOOD1976]

I,m pretty excited too, to see the next wave of Red Circle hero's make there mark on the DCU. I hope that we will see them crossover more with other DC titles in the future.I think was a shame that they didn't crossover to Blackest Nights. I hope the third wave of Red Circle hero's we will see some women :)

[leonmallett]

I,m pretty excited too, to see the next wave of Red Circle hero's make there mark on the DCU. I hope that we will see them crossover more with other DC titles in the future.I think was a shame that they didn't crossover to Blackest Nights.

There was no way to do so without it being contrived, so the right decsion was taken I think, though on balance I think that in doing so Dc hurt themselves with lost potential sales on these two books.

I hope the third wave of Red Circle hero's we will see some women :)

I have a theory as to why we haven't seen any women or indeed any change of noticable ethnicity thus far. I may have posted it on this board or on another one.

The super names, and so far the civilian names, have not been changed. That makes me think that there may be some kind of stipulation in the license agreement. That is purely speculation, but it is supposition based on recent DC trends, and so if they had been DC-owned, I expect we would have seen changes along the lines of gender, ethnic origin and potentially sexual orientation. Since that didn't happen, maybe there were some limitations or restrictions of the changes that could be made in place from Archie. Thoughts?

[minton]

I forget, did the original Mr. Justice wear a scarf? In the picture from the link above, it's hard for Mr. Justice to look tough with that strip of bedsheet or cashmere scarf or whatever the heck that is on his neck. I just wish they would leave the scarves to the Shadow and the Fourth Doctor (of Doctor Who).

[leonmallett]

I forget, did the original Mr. Justice wear a scarf? In the picture from the link above, it's hard for Mr. Justice to look tough with that strip of bedsheet or cashmere scarf or whatever the heck that is on his neck. I just wish they would leave the scarves to the Shadow and the Fourth Doctor (of Doctor Who).

Just a cape for the original. I like that the scarf maintains the allusion towards the colour scheme of the original (albeit in a darker blue).

I do wonder what an !mpact comics Mr Justice would have been like, though.

[minton]

I can't help but think that Impact would have done a better job. I liked the Impact Comet, but this new one looks too cartoony and reminds me of the old 'Space Ace' and 'Dragon's Lair' arcade games. The punchbowl/bubble/jellyfish/?? over his head doesn't help. I liked the Impact Jaguar, but this Jaguar is a generic looking wolfman-type. I was intrigued by the brief appearance of the Impact Hangman, who saw through his pet raven's eyes, but the new Hangman has a noose that looks like a necktie, and the ridiculous "two-day-stubble-adds-toughness-to-my-permanent-scowl" contrivance. Oh, and his power seems to be his super-healing- Can you say 'Wolverine'?

And now, Mr. Justice with a scarf. Seriously?? Am I alone in thinking that this Linus security blanket-looking scarf (that could get caught on sthg and strangle him BTW) creates the equivalent effect of drawing him with a peony behind one ear? Otherwise, he would have looked fairly badass.

What the heck has happened to DC?

[leonmallett]

I can't help but think that Impact would have done a better job. I liked the Impact Comet, but this new one looks too cartoony and reminds me of the old 'Space Ace' and 'Dragon's Lair' arcade games. The punchbowl/bubble/jellyfish/?? over his head doesn't help. I liked the Impact Jaguar, but this Jaguar is a generic looking wolfman-type. I was intrigued by the brief appearance of the Impact Hangman, who saw through his pet raven's eyes, but the new Hangman has a noose that looks like a necktie, and the ridiculous "two-day-stubble-adds-toughness-to-my-permanent-scowl" contrivance. Oh, and his power seems to be his super-healing- Can you say 'Wolverine'?

I think that regeneration hasn't been the sole domain of Wolverine for a very long time, that is like comparing a super-strong guy to Superman and so on. The regeneration is not the extent of Hangman's powers - he has a vast array, too many possibly since he almost seems to have a new application of his powers in each episode.

And now, Mr. Justice with a scarf. Seriously?? Am I alone in thinking that this Linus security blanket-looking scarf (that could get caught on sthg and strangle him BTW) creates the equivalent effect of drawing him with a peony behind one ear? Otherwise, he would have looked fairly badass.

I have no problem with the scarf, I think it actually differentiates his costume from the thousands of others out there. But then I may be alone in that. :)

What the heck has happened to DC?

I'd suggest that DC have many problems, many of which are papered over by the success of their events. In relation to the Red Circle I think the creators involved are doing a good job, but that DC messed up by choosing the likely worst time to launch the characters in ongoings in the midst of Blackest Night.

[minton]

OK, fair enough regarding Hangman- I only read the one-shot so far. In comparing to Wolverine I meant to refer to the scowl and stubble, too, but I could have put it more clearly. I'll have to check it out if he does get some interesting powers in his series. Guess I've been too negative, as this redesign is better than nothing- but I would rather have had the original, or 80's Red Circle, or Impact heroes. I ought to give them a chance.